Fun BC Forum 2/7/05 to 2/11/05

First three posts deleted.
#4 Ouch
Well, the loss of those posts hurts a bit. I'm scheduled for hand surgery next week to put a tendon on my right ring finger back where it belongs (and this after seven weeks of having two steel posts drilled into bone with rubber bands pulling back the finger 24/7 (an experiment which failed), so I'm not that comfortable with typing at this time.

In case readers of this forum read my first two posts and did not get a chance to read the third, here's the skinny: Russ said that I gave Luc Burgin information in a post (repeating a previous claim he'd made in THE BARNES REVIEW). I denied this, offered to provide a copy of a letter from Luc to a woman in New Hampshire in which Luc wrote that he was surprised by the woman's take on the Burrows Cave affair and had sent a letter to Russ repeating her statements. Russ posted an apology, suggested that Hubbard had probably mentioned my name to Luc, and I made a third post thanking Russ and also asking him to take back the things he said about my mother... I also wrote that I won't be on this forum much longer, as I've had my say and have little to add to the latest adventures in southern Illinois. BTW, I was kidding regarding the comments about my mother. Have fun, everyone.
Richard Flavin

Russ Burrows
Registered User
Posts: 627
(2/7/05 2:48 pm)

Reply     Re: Ouch
I did apologize about what I said about your mother and told you that your sister ain't bad either.


#5 An Open Plea to Russ
Stay, sir; this is your forum and I know you can deal with nay-sayers easier than most can name Gerald Ford’s vice president. While I have my opinions, which I’ve shared with you personally, regarding your claims of a fantastic cave and the carved items you’ve peddled (and given away) over the years, it remains your affair. I’ve offered my two cents to provide a background for readers, but I’ve never been a player like The Kids, May, and others. I’ve said I would be the first to praise the glory of your discovery, if it were true. I don’t know what you’ve been doing and, yes, it’s none of my business. However, tonight PBS has a program about The Vinland Map, Jett has a new book coming out soon (as well as another issue of PRECOLUMBIANA), and contact between the Old and New worlds remains an exciting avenue of investigation. Mormons? I wonder about the connection between THE ANCIENT AMERICAN and this forum. That I mentioned the editor of AA and the entire thread was deleted is just another episode of THE TWILIGHT ZONE, I guess. The AA slideshow is an online treat, for sure. When our government starts to pass laws based upon the mis-information provided by supporters of agenda-driven folks I feel I have a duty to step forward. Kind of like the “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach. Folks are free to believe in whatever they wish, but when those beliefs impact our schools, social programs or how we regard Native Americans, I step forward because I was raised that it’s the right thing to do. Mark Twain said: “Always tell the truth and you won’t have to remember ‘nothing!” Have fun, go crazy, but if you or anyone on this forum thinks for a short second that these fantastic claims will be accepted by the general public, I suggest having an ample supply of tissues on hand. I dream, too, wild and crazy ideas at times, but Pilate is long dead and truth is now supported with evidence. Unless the jury is drunk, of course. Russ, this is your game and I plead that you see it through. If I could make your “cave” real, I might, just to rock the boat. However, we’re stuck with our world, our reality, our history, our mistakes and corrections, and we go on as best we can. Please continue, sir, you’ve an audience that seems to enjoy your BTW, I don’t have a sister and my brother is still upset.

Russ Burrows
Registered User
Posts: 633
(2/8/05 6:32 pm)

Reply     Reply to Rick
For those other than Rick reading this I will state that while he and I have been bitter foes at times in the past, we have always remained friendly and do have friendly conversations.

Well, Rick! I will give it some thought. I did just have to come back and respond to your kind and considerate appeal. Yes, I will give it some thought because I see what you are saying is true. This IS my thread on this forum and, as you well know, I finish what I start.

As you well know and as I have said many times to you personally, you have a right to believe what you want so, You do not surprize me with your choice(for now)of being on the other side of the fence.

This all started because a certain individual came across as a friend; direct e-mails and such. Then, out of the blue, an attack as bad as yours and my dear friend, Harry Hubbard. I just don't understand that kind of conduct.

Again, I will apologize through you to your mother. I sure did think that was her and you sister I met on the corner of Wells and North Avenue.

Russ Burrows

Registered User
Posts: 196
(2/8/05 9:10 pm)

Reply     Re: Reply to Rick
Well Rick, tthis one is going to make your blood boil then. Just yesterday I received a phone call from a schoolteacher friend, and she asked if I had seen the article in the local paper about Wayne May saying he will be opening a cave in Illinois that will change history. I have't seen the article yet, but a copy is on the way to me. He was spouting his particular brand of diffusion, Mormonism, Son of the Right Hand..., etc. She wanted to know whay I thought about her having Mr. May come to speak at her school. She wanted to get on the list of local schools that is scheduling him to speak all over the district. Yes, it appears your worst nightmare is coming true at this very moment. I never thought to mention it until I read this. Are you willing to help me put a stop to this? It's the right thing to do. Personally I would rather have Russ speaking in these schools.

Unregistered User
(2/9/05 7:52 am)
Reply     Re: Re: Reply
I believe much of this should be discussed off-forum. The online free encyclopedia, Wikipedia, has a entry for Frank Collin and provides an external link to my web-article which mentions May. In the past I’ve contacted the editor of The Lake Mills Leader, local historians and the Ho-Chunk. I think I’ve done what I could. I might be able to suggest things someone who actually lives in the Midwest (I’ve been East for the last eleven years), but this should be done off-forum because it has very little to do with Russ (at least directly).

#6 Re: Re: Re: Reply
Oddness pervades the posts and, I suppose, I should expect such on this forum. For the triviality of it all, the above post by “Twist” and the “Unregistered User” status must have been caused by my poor log-in skills. Let’s see if this post gets credited correctly.

#7 Re: Newspaper Article
These types of filler features are more common, at least on a local level, than many would expect. Here in Massachusetts, just before every Columbus Day we get several fluff pieces about Leif Erikson (his rather fay statue is at the end of the Commonwealth Ave. green, facing Kenmore Sq., while ironically a statue of Sam Morrison, renowned Columbus biographer and staunch “No Europeans before Columbus” proponent, is at the other end of the block, with both statutes facing away from one another. For the last several years most newspaper features have quotes from Mass. State Archaeologist, Brona Simon, and someone from NEARA providing the “What If?” angle. For many years before that, opposing views were by the late Jim Whittall and Harvard’s Prof. Stephen Williams (now retired). Of course, out here there’s many pre-Columbian claims to write about. I’m sure folks in Minnesota get a steady diet of articles on the KRS; ditto the readers in Heavener, OK and the runestone there. Columbus, Georgia writes yearly (or did) about ISAC and I wouldn’t be surprised if Columbus, Ohio writes occasionally about the MES. Other examples from around America would be too numerous for this post. The May article has a quote from an archaeologist at Marquette University that’s about as equivocating as any diffusionist could hope for. But, this begins to drift off-topic.

Humans have long been fascinated with caves. As natural shelters, caves have protected us against the environment (unless, of course, some hungry bear is lurking at the rear of the cave with a taste for long pig). Within the last several years there have been fantastic caves discovered in France, with one accessible only after swimming underwater for a ways. Maybe there is a cave that May has stumbled across in southern Illinois; we’ll see. Will it be as Russ has described and replete with gold, statues and corpses? Hollywood is waiting...

What is possibly of concern, here, is May lecturing to school children. At conventions to a mature audience, that’s one thing, but impressionable kids is another. Would we want Catholic priests standing in front of public school children describing how a tiny whole wheat wafer (a ‘host’) magically changes to holy flesh on one’s tongue? A Scientologist giving kids advice on how to clear themselves of the alien influence humans have endured for years until that other Hubbard discovered a way to transfer cash from a fool’s hand to his own. Would you want a Mormon lecturing public school children that ancient Israelites traveled to the New World?

[Cut by moderator: Would you want a Mormon lecturing public school children that ancient Israelites traveled to the New World and those who didn’t believe in the resurrected Jesus had their skins darkened in punishment which is claimed by the LDS to have given rise to the various nations of Native Americans? Being a diffusionist is one thing, usually on the level of a hobbyist, but being a Mormon and preaching twisted history to kids is cult behavior and should be illegal in public schools, unless the hypothetical lecture was specifically about alternative religious beliefs. Such lectures occur all the time, but usually on a college level.]

Okay, the coffee’s ready. Have a nice day!

MODERATOR NOTE: The two most opinionated topics anyone could possibly discuss (on this forum or anywhere else) are those of politics and religion. We do our best to minimize reference to either of these topics especially so when referenced in a negative light. We definitely want to encourage the ex-pression of one’s opinions on the forum, but not at the cost of another’s political or religious views. Please try and be considerate in these areas not only for yourself, but for the sake of everyone else as well. Thanks!

Edited by: Whyte Eagle at: 2/10/05 11:16 am

Registered User
Posts: 421
(2/10/05 10:01 am)

Reply     Twistory = twisted history?
Twistory (Richard Flavin) asks: "Would you want a Mormon lecturing public school children that ancient Israelites traveled to the New World..."

The newspaper article says about Wayne May's views on this point: "Although he offers no answers in his magazine, he leaves that to the educated but always skeptical experts who have all the money to conduct lab tests and do field work. May certainly raises a lot of questions. For example, another recent story in his magazine claims Phoenician Israelites came to America about 1,000 B.C.

The story cites a book by a late Harvrd professor who said North African Phoenician inscriptins, coins
and trade items were found in New England, Ohio, and West

I suppose that discussing such evidence from a Harvard professor would not be off-limits.

Then Flavin goes on in what I consider twisted/distorted history: "...those who didn’t believe in the resurrected Jesus had their skins darkened in punishment which is claimed by the LDS to have given rise to the various nations of Native Americans? Being a diffusionist is one thing, usually on the level of a hobbyist, but being a Mormon and preaching twisted history to kids is cult behavior and should be illegal in public schools"

No, I as an LDS do NOT believe that "those who didn’t believe in the resurrected Jesus had their skins darkened in punishment which is claimed by the LDS to have given rise to the various nations of Native Americans" .

Can you cite any references for your statement, Flavin?
It is inflammatory, your twisted-history remark above -- but this is not taught by the LDS to my knowledge. I don't believe it.

Russ Burrows
Registered User
Posts: 646
(2/10/05 10:24 am)

Reply     Re: Twistory = twisted history?
I agree with you HE. I doubt that Flavin realizes that this forum is made up mainly of LDS members but that is no excuse for such inflamatory remarks. We are all entitled to worship as we please and no one has the right to belittle anyone for their beliefs.

Rick, I suggest to you that you cool your jets down with regards to the LDS. Not every LDS member is like May.

Russ Burrows

#8 Reply to HardEvidence
First, the late Harvard professor was Barry Fell, a published marine biologist. I spoke and exchanged letters with Fell for a dozen years. The Harvard professor I studied under was Stephen Williams, the author of FANTASTIC ARCHAEOLOGY. Regarding the possibility of pre-Columbian Hebrew inscriptions in America, a better choice would be the late Prof. Cyrus Gordon of Brandeis University. Gordon believed he identified Samaritan elements in the Los Lunas inscription, supported the Bat Creek stone as Hebrew in origin, but changed his mind about the Paraiba inscription from research I did for him showing Masonic influence in Brazil. I went to Gordon’s funeral and miss him mightily. Anything else; e-mail me.

As far as LDS origins for Native Americans, please ask at a library or learn to use an online search-engine. Here’s a URL of one such entry:

Respecting this forum, with manners, I invite off-forum discussions of these topics. This forum, as I understand it, is about Russ and his claim of a fantastic cave.
Richard Flavin

#9 Digging Out
As a writer, I’ve both benefitted from editors and been enraged by their cuts. A few days ago, an entire thread disappeared and I chalked it up to a simple error. Yesterday, a post of mine was edited ostensibly for content. There was no profanity, no personal attacks against forum members, just information about Mormon doctrine which is well known and condemned by many. Sure, that doctrine has changed over the years and after, I believe, around 1971, was re-worded to reflect a non-racist stance. I used this example together with the impossible anthropophagic magic of transubstantiation as claimed by Catholics. I was raised Catholic, BTW. The difference between these two examples, however, is that one is a matter of faith and the other can be documented through various editions of the BOM. While I maintain the modernity of Burrows’ carved stones and laugh at the claim of a cave with spirits, statues and gold, I’ve followed the hoax with interest not so much to discover anything about the person(s) making the claims, but rather to better understand those who believe in the claims. That religious (properly, cultish) fetishism is present is reflected by those carved stone items which have surfaced over the last several years with images of a Christ-like figure. My bottom line in this is simple–have fun; I’m out of here. This is your playground and I’m going back to school. Though my personal commitments will consume much of my time in the near future, if forum members wish to e-mail me for information, I’ll answer as best and as timely as I can. PS, it’s Burrows, the man, Burrows’ or Burrows’s as a possessive, Burrows Cave as the infamous subject of this forum, Burrows’ cave if one believes in the cave and Burrows’ ‘cave’with single hash marks or quotes for those unbelievers. Burrow’s doesn’t make it. Do this for me and I will hold my time on this form with some level of accomplishment.
Richard Flavin

Russ Burrows
Registered User
Posts: 653
(2/11/05 8:59 am)

Reply     Re: Digging Out
Naw Rick. We are better off if you just go away.


Registered User
Posts: 43
(2/11/05 10:59 am)

Reply     digging out versus digging in
Richard: As they say in the psychological trades: "I hear what you are saying, but..."

...and I'll continue to use "I" statements here:

...I don't think anyone one on this forum should be posting for a level of personal accomplishment, but rather to exchange a series of information and ideas--freely--to inform and learn, and to allow and encourage the same in others.

We do this so that others may adopt and use or dismiss these ideas and information AS THEY SEE FIT.

Yes, there are a lot of issues swirling about the cave. Yes, there are many questions to be had until the cave is opened, the archeologist's report is public, and more is known and not simply anecdotal. Yes, given the vacuum of verifiable facts many have tried to hijack the cave (or its convenient ambiguity) to support their agendas. We all know that. That is perhaps the most dead horse on here from all of the beating.

So it doesn't help to make the horse any deader to analyze the dogmatic or historical errors/evolution of anyone else's religion. Religion is a group dynamic, whereas faith is personal. People need what they believe. All efforts to examine or criticize a religion or dogma can only be entertained by the willing, and certainly will injure or inure, or raise ire to those who view it as an attack on their faith (a personal thing, meriting a personal response).

...this forum has strength in its diversity of opinion, and its collective information and knowledge.

...I'd ask you to spectate it you can't respect that, and freely participate if you can.

There is an appropriate forum for the discussions you're having, and that is "Understanding the Burrows Cave Saga." Your article already is referenced there, I believe (without checking to confirm)

Catholic, Mormon, Jewish... I don't care... and I don't pretend to know the answers. I appreciate your analysis, but also find it troublesome in the context that you know it's likely to evoke a response. Leave well enough alone, and have that conversation with like-minded individuals who'll share your opinion, or engage in dialog based on comparative thought and not faith...

looking at it from the outside, your comparative analysis has been forced on individuals of a certain faith, which is exactly what you accused them of: Cultish and blind behavior without empathy.

...and I think you should get over the accidental loss of a forum topic. it happened, move on. surely none of our words are that precious.

return to Falling Into Burrows' Cave